What Official stance does AA take with regards to those Online Meetings you see being held all over the internet? Well here is the  response I recieved, when I posed that very  question to the GSO a while back.

Subject:	RE: AA Official Stance Question
Date:	Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:36:40 -0400
From:	"Staffcoord"

"... Just as with F2F meetings, each meeting chooses whether or not to identify itself as an AA meeting. Our General Service Office experience is that a meeting identifies itself as AA if it is put on by AAs for AAs about AA and follows the Steps, Traditions and principles of AA.

"is it like a rule that you have to reed all that 'there are no dues or fees or

sects or alighencisess or affiliations and were are slef suporting' stuff at the

begining of every meeting? do you HAVE to do the serenity prayer at evvverrryy meeting?

are they still 'real' meetings if yu skip the traditional readings?

i know its a program of tradition,, but to be point blank about it,,, err,, when times change

and traditions dont,, traditions suck.”

Ducky,

I would venture to say that the readings and the Serenity Prayer are different from watching “The Wizard of Oz” at your grandmother's house. For one thing, there were probably no newcomers at your grandmother's house who had never seen it, nor did their lives depend on watching it.

The meeting format for AA (and, I'm sure NA) meetings is determined by group conscience – it is entirely up to each individual group to decide which format best suits their primary purpose. Some groups close with the Lord's Prayer, some close with the Serenity Prayer; some read the Promises, some read the Responsibility Declaration. There is generally a reason why certain things are read, even if it just seems to be ritualistic.

Your first reference above is the AA/NA Preamble, which basically describes what AA/NA is – this is helpful for newcomers who have never set foot in a meeting before.

As a matter of personal preference, I enjoy hearing the Serenity Prayer at the beginning of a meeting. At face-to-face meetings, the chairperson generally says “Let's start with a moment of silence for those who are still suffering, followed by the Serenity Prayer.” This serves two purposes for me – first, to remind me why I am there (for those who are still suffering), and second, to quiet the chaos in my head so that I can pay attention in the meeting, and listen with the qualities of the Serenity Prayer in mind.

When you speak of “traditions”, please don't confuse meeting formats with the actual Traditions. Here are the Twelve Traditions of AA:

1. Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity.
   
   2. For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority - a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.
   
   3. The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.
   
   4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.
   
   5. Each group has but one primary purpose-to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.
   
   6. An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance
   or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.
   
   7. Every A.A. group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.
   
   8. Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional, but our service centers may employ special workers.
   
   9. A.A., as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.
   
   10. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.
   
   11. Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and films.
   
   12. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.

I've heard it said that the Steps keep us from killing ourselves, and that the Traditions keep us from killing each other. The Traditions serve as guidelines for groups, where the Steps serve as guidelines for individuals.

I don't know that times have changed so much that a moment of silence or the Serenity Prayer wouldn't be welcome – I know that sometimes, I have gotten the answer to a problem simply by listening to “How It Works” read at a meeting (for the umpteenth time), or, upon hearing the Promises (for the umpteenth time), I realize that maybe my life ain't so bad after all. And maybe, just maybe, a newcomer hearing it for the first time might find some hope.

Hope this answers your question.

Hi ya Ducky!

I think what the administrator posted here answers most of your questions.  I also have had many of the experiences Carol speaks of in meetings where the steps of AA, the Traditions, the prayers are read.  It immediatly clears my head, and makes it easier to be a listener, instead of listening to my own head during a meeting. 

I also think that the first paragraph in chapter five in the AA book speaks volumes to your question. It says:

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path".  For people looking for a solution to the problem of alcohol I think this one sentance says it all.  But what path?  If there were no steps to follow, no suggestions to hear, no traditions....... what would the path be?  Our best thinking?  My best thinking got me a chair in the rooms of Alcohlics Anonymous.  I earned my chair by thinking over and over again that I knew something, that I could think my way out of the whole I was falling into, over and over again.  Chapter five goes on to say " Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completly give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves".  When I read this paragraph, and when I heard it read over, and over, and over again, it finally sunk into this wet brain of mine.  If I want to recover, like people I see in meetings, living productive lives, I had better get honest with myself.

I have to tell you Ducky, on day one, I barely knew how to be honest with myself.  As I have stayed around the rooms of AA, met people online, listened in meetings, and kept going back and hearing the same things over and over, I have aquired a measure of honesty.  Low these many years in recovery, I am still finding a depth of honesty I did not know even exsisted.

If you want what we have, and your willing to put your best thinking aside, come and join us. Embrace the words of those who have gone before you, who are sober, and living a life that perhaps you dream of.  If not, don't take suggestions, question everything and live on the edge of the desert of sobriety............ it's dry there, real dry........ and very lonely.

lovlee

"errrmmm i dotn know about AA but i know that there are NA meetings that are regestered with the big wigs are that top of NA service stuff,,,, like where they choose what goes in the books and that,, if you write to them you can get your meeting recognised as an 'offical' meeting..."

Just as a point of information, AA (and I believe NA) are upside-down organizations -- meaning that the individual home groups are at the top, and the General Service Office is at the bottom.  The individual home groups determine the future of AA, not "big wigs".  Any changes to the literature are a result of individual home groups' suggestions.

There's an saying around the rooms of AA, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

AA has stood the hand of time in being the best place for a suffering alcoholic to get help. I have been going to meetings for a few 24's now and I never ever think that the preamble, the steps or the traditions should not be read. They remind me why I am here, what I should be doing and that my resp. is to my fellow alcoholics.

The serenity prayer is something I have read and said every single day of my sobriety.

We are alcoholics,, we NEED direction. We need to see things in black and white and most times we need to see them more than once.

If I ever think something is redundant in the readings.. I best remember where I came from and the hope I felt at hearing the words" Rarely have we seen a person fail"

There is only ever been one thing I would change in the readings and that would be,,,,,, "NEVER have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path"

The other reading/prayer I am grateful for is the Lords' Prayer.

I try to remember at all times, that my brilliance got me right down on my knees. This program and all it entails, gave me back my life. One I am proud of today.

"all you have to do to stay sober is not drink. that IS following the AA path, cuase one of the steps along that path way is,, just dont drink..
so long as the person does that thing they can fooie everything else up and still be a success (im talking about no longer being a drunk, not about becomeing spritual, thats not the question or how 'success' of AA is measured. NA even more becuase the ONLY promise is freedom from active addiction)"

WRONG.  I tried that way many, many times, and was never successfully sober.  I was still a drunk, just not drinking.  For me personally, success in sobriety means being able to enjoy my life and be happy. With the tools I have gained through AA's old-fashioned program, I do enjoy my life today, and even more than that, I enjoy ME -- which is something I never had before.  These are the Promises of AA:

"If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will be amazed before we are half way through.  We are going to know a new freedom and a new happiness.  We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it.  We will comprehend the word serenity and we will know peace.  No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience can benefit others.  That feeling of uselessness and self-pity will disappear.  We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows.  Self-seeking will slip away.  Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change.  Fear of people and of economic insecurity will leave us.  We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us.  We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves."

Inherent in those Promises is the measure of successful sobriety.

"the program isnt perfect, meening it could still be better, meening we shouldnt out rule any 'change' becuase we are a 'program of tradition.'"

WRONG.  It is not a program of tradition, it is a program of action.  We do not do the things that those before us did simply as a matter of tradition, we do them to live.  If it has worked for them, it just might work for me.

"but the idea of the program is to atract newcomers and keep them coinging back, now surely that would be a higher priority than upholding the old way so the old timers, who know they can always get there books out if they need to hear something, can feel secure in there unbroken ways."

WRONG.  The idea of the program is to attract newcomers who want to get sober/clean the same way we did.  We provide examples of sobriety, and try to lead by example.  In "How It Works", it says very clearly "If you have decided you want what we have, and are willing to go to any length to get it -- then you are ready to take certain steps".  No one is obligated to stay, to do the steps,or anything else -- but if someone decides they want what we have, they have to be willing to make some changes in themselves.  If you do what you always did, you'll get what you always got.

"its like having a car that workes perfectly well,, and not trading it in for a convertable with with air con, suround sound I pod player, electric windows ect.. and just sticking with the one that 'goes'."

And what's wrong with that? 

"LEARN FROM THE YOUNG!"

I do, and so does everyone else in AA/NA -- we all learn from every newcomer who comes through the door.  We learn tolerance, we learn patience, and we learn to pray for those who so adamantly stick to their old ways of thinking that they cannot be open to new ideas, or those who selfishly want to change things to suit their individual needs.

My suggestion to you would be to try it the way that has worked for so many others, instead of questioning or changing things to suit yourself.  The worst that can happen is that you get and stay clean and sober, instead of being where you were before.   The best that can happen is that you might actually enjoy it.

and by the way

i hate arguing. and conflict,, and this has really tired me out.
just mentioning it.

being totaly god reliant works for you lot.
but it doesnt work for us lot.
we just want your cool chips and key tags and coffee and to stop feeling alone. somewhere to go and be welcomes by others like us.

Ducky,

I say this with love and respect for your beliefs, as I hope you respect mine.

The chips and key tags are earned by doing the work of the program.

By all means, use what you like about NA/AA to get and stay clean and sober -- then use what you've learned and help others to get clean and sober -- start your own group, hell, start your own recovery program that does not include reliance on a Higher Power.  There are plenty of other programs out there that do not rely on a Higher Power.

In another post, you asked others to please be honest about how they cope with things -- to tell you how they overcome their struggles.  That's what we have done here and what is done in f2f meetings -- we share our experience, strength and hope -- and for most of us, it includes reliance on a power greater than ourselves. You ask for suggestions, yet you don't like the answers.

Keep doing the work, and you will find the peace you seek.

So, you are saying you are just being a brat in this conversation?  

Duckling... this reminds me of 2 words that have seriously hurt many before you in this lifetime "terminal uniqueness"

You can't really believe that you would be the first to feel this way? The first that has struggled with this "HP" thing?

All we can do is tell you that if you "want what we have" then ask for it whether you believe or not. Who cares at this point if there is a God or not? Ask for help,, it won't hurt and it just MIGHT help.

I do have a question and that is have you read "Chapter to the Agnostic" in the big book :)

Footnote to Susan: I highly doubt any of us are threatened. We love Duckling and are sharing with her , what has worked for us.

Melly, I think you may be right about the terminal uniqueness. 

Ducky, I personally know several atheists who have managed to do the steps -- they didn't believe in "God", but they believed in a power greater than themselves.  They were open-minded enough to consider something outside of what they believed, honest enough to admit their way wasn't working, and willing to listen to suggestions, even if the suggestions conflicted with their beliefs.

And you may not realize it, but the love and the caring and the principles, the very things which you admire about NA/AA are the result of a power greater than the individual members -- that's why you don't find the same things in other programs.

I am sure you will find your path in time.

Susan, I don't feel threatened by Ducky's beliefs in the least.  I am, however, passionate about the program that saved my life.  I am sorry that it came across as defensive to you.

heated descussion?
tried smart, treid rational recovery,, no meetings in UK, and the peopel arnt as nice as they are here. melly is right im not angry frustrated, bothered,, or risking my recovery in any way. its just a descussion. im not trying to get anyone to change , im just telling you one of the things that i see wrong with the program and that it says it caters for every religion, but it doesnt cater for mine.

when you tell people this

It is my belief that one of the following things will happen: (1) you will find a solution elsewhere, (2) you will come back to AA and NA desperate enough to do as directed (the steps really aren't suggestions), (3) you will end up in jail or in some other institution or (4) you will end up dead from your disease.

you scare them off. would it be easyer to just say . come in have a seet have a cup of tea, get yourself a key tag, choose a spnsor,, we will help you stay clean. we dont all want help finding and giving our will over to the care of a HP, we just want to be clean, you probably dont see it in america, but i know that here, there are so many, our culture has changed, and the program fits less people.

and susan, i am NOT trying to push peoples buttons. OK? its alright for freinds to dissagree on things. allan he was protestant and sean was catholic born but it never made a difference for the freindship was strong. (tommy sands there where roses)


akkk melly,, there are loooaaaaddsssss of people that feel exactly the same. and most of them dont come back, and that is why. I know im not the only one,,, if i thought i was i wouldnt even be saying anything becuase I dnt mind writing what i think pepel want to hear to get to do the rest of what i want.

it comes down to that i DONT want what you have. and I know full well that that is my problem. i think getting it will be harmful, i think you all live in danger, but im powerless over that, but i sure dont want it for myself and i dont want to want it.

Ive read the basic text melly,, and i am not agnostic. i know full well what i believe in. :)

carol ive been hackign at this for over a year , meetings every day, i have an open mind. I am open minded to others and new ideas. the program isnt open minded to mine. 
i dont believe in a higher power. im not the only one. and i DONT suffer from terminal uniquness,, OK? you assume that even though ive been telling you that there are others that agree with me, and most of them that do you never see in the rooms again to get a chance to see that.your believes dont work for me. i dont even need them to. si dont think of synergy or love as a higher power. I have found 'my path.'

so can we end it at that?

I have to lie to get what i want. Im ok with that. other people may not be, you probbaly dont liek the idea, but id rather be lieing and in here with you than in another program being rational without you, or back out or locked up or dead. shame about the others that wont lie. shame we cant do something for them.

Duckling,, how could you possibly say there are loads of them and many don't come back? I don't mean to point out the obvious , but you haven't been around long enough to know that is so.

I have been around for many years,, even before I joined the program myself, I went to many open AA functions and my dad did a lot of 12 step work right from our home.

I've seen many come and go.. and most go cause they just aren't willing to do the work.

There is a part in the big book that says 'I earnestly advise every alcoholic to read this book through, and though perhaps he came to scoff, he may remain to pray'

And Duckling,, like I have said before, if it works , don't fix it... and for millions, in every single country of this world now, it HAS worked. Since 1935 it HAS worked.

We welcome people with open arms,, we are willing to help and love them.  I don't give a rats ass if they believe in God or not,,,,,, except for the fact that I myself know what they are missing out by denying themselves that belief.

I see God at work every single day and it's a glorious thing. I am sober BY God's grace. I have seen many tortured souls healed by His love.

There is another part in the big book that says.. "We never apologise to anyone for depending on our Creator.We can laugh at those who think spirituality the way of weakness. Paradoxically, it is the way of strength. The verdict of the ages is that faith means courage. All men of faith have courage. They trust their God. We never apologise for God. Instead we let them demonstrate, through us, what He can do. We ask Him to removes our fear and direct our attention to what He would have us do. At once, we commence to outgrow fear."

I kinda like the idea of letting Him take over my life. He knows what He is doing :)

Man all this writing and words back and forth;  I think you all should use bigger print so old broads like me don't have to squint to read it....

But Love you all I'm keeping my thoughts to myself on this subject..

Love you All

HDMerry

omg you just pulled that 'you aint been her long enough' one on me.

I see it. you can believe me or not, i believe i see it. and all this is is a descussion on beliefes.
yes its true,, peopel leave if they dont want to do the work, but work isnt the right word.
im writing my steps out, thats doing the work, but i cant belive and dont want to. along with others.
and thats why we dont come back. thats what we dont want to do.

im not asking you to fix anything.

all this dissagreement is making me feel quite sad. but illl get over that.  I fear it might end up getting personal or effect, however subconsiously or inderectly, your respect or what ever in me. I dont like upsetting people or things and this has been hot topic for a while.

im not backing down from my belives. nore will i ever be frightened to stand up for myself or a minroty to espress them. 

my bliefes are different from yours but they do not make me sick or wrong.

so i ask

can we agree to dissagree now?
thats where its heading anyway. 

Of course we can agree to disagree. 

This is not a situation of Us vs. Them or even We/Me vs. You -- all we have tried to do is offer you our suggestions through our experience strength and hope, and you have said that you don't want our suggestions, and that you don't want what we have.

That's fine.  You have chosen your path and I sincerely wish you the best.  There is no need for resentment on either side, including comments like "life is like a fairy tale based on once upon a day at a time".  Fair enough?

I too, took what your exit line said last night, as darn near an insult if I am going to be honest, Duckling. Life sober, is hardly a fairy tale. But it is manageable because of the trust I have in a HP and the tools I am given by being sober and doing the footwork. I myself have never seen that quote before so to see it now for the first time was just bad timing I guess.

As far as saying you haven't been around very long,, I wasn't pulling anything there, I was stating a fact. I have prolly been to 30 different meetings/groups in the years I have been sober so I think it is pretty safe to assume my scope of things would be wider than yours.( I am not saying I am better ,,,,, I am saying I have seen more as far as a recovery program BECAUSE of my length of time and experiance)

I see your point of view, I have not once denied that. What am I saying is,, you will be probably be a lot happier if you "accept the things you cannot change" And if you can't , I just don't know WHAT to suggest Duckling cause no one is going to change this program to suit you and the people you say are leaving. They just aren't hanging around long enough for the miracle to happen to them and that is a decision they are making.

You say you won't back down from your beliefs and once again, no one is asking you to. You asked our opinions and we gave our opinions. You say it is making it sad and is that because we aren't agreeing with you? Why would it make you sad if all we are doing is discussing our beliefs? There is no reason it should. 

Anyways,, thanks for the lively discussion and topic. I will continue to pray that God will work in your life

I had never seen that exit line before, either, Ducky.  I guess timing is everything!